Tags
bible, biblical counseling, christian, christianity, counseling, psychology, SBC, SBTS, southern baptist, Southern Seminary, Stuart Scott
As you probably know, I am the new guy here at the “who am i?” blog. If you missed out back in July, check out Barry’s interview with me here.
My wife and I have just recently moved to Louisville, Kentucky and I am now in my second week at Southern Seminary. There are a lot of exciting things happening in and through Southern Seminary, and it’s exciting to be right in the middle of it. I am pursuing my Masters in Divinity through the Billy Graham School of Missions and Evangelism.
This is the first in a series of blogs I will be posting throughout this semester. The concept was birthed from a series of short conversations between Barry and I, and a lot of dreaming and brainstorming. There are a lot of people out there who would love to go to seminary and attend these classes but that is just not possible and not where God has called them. These are the people I have in mind during this series. Not that I would in any way offer anything resembling seminary teaching, but that you would be able to get an inside view of what class is like, and hopefully contribute to some issues brought up in class.
We both thought it would be intriguing and beneficial to blog through a class for a semester. My vision is that once a week I would discuss that week’s lecture and my general impressions on it. I think this will be a pretty creative form of studying! I very much would love to receive questions in the comments section that I can ask the professor or the teaching assistant.
We all agreed when looking at my schedule that the best class for the endeavor would be Introduction to Biblical Counseling: Methods and Skills, taught by Stuart Scott (not the ESPN Sportscenter Stuart Scott. I know…disappointing!). We thought this would generate a lot of discussion and questions since there are a lot of Christians with different (and passionate) views on the subject. We live in a society that increasingly sees the psychiatrist’s couch and the pharmacy as the solution to the issues going on in their lives. Even by the most liberal of assessments, one would be hard-pressed to deny this. But what is the Biblical model for this? What is the church’s responsibility? Is the Bible, the church and the pastorate sufficient to handle these difficult “psychological” issues? Should the pastor refer their congregation to professional counselors outside the church, preferably one with a fish on their sign?
These are difficult issues, but they are issues we cannot afford to ignore. The integrity of the gospel is at stake. I invite you to join me in wrestling through these issues, and wrestle we will, for I am not coming into this with two feet firmly placed in any specific camp.
Do you have any initial thoughts, questions, or experiences regarding biblical counseling that you would like to share? I look forward to tackling these issues with you. May it all be for His glory.
The bio for Dr. Stuart Scott can be found here.
Isaac,
The questions you’ve already raised in this post are excellent and probing and without easy answers. I’m really looking forward to the series and to interacting with you and others on this subject. I’ll be praying for you, too, in your studies, brother.
The biblical counseling class I took at Southeastern was by far the most challenging to my personal walk and to how I interact/view others. I’m glad to be a part of a church that practices biblical counseling and have seen it in the lives of my friends as we seek to help each other pursue Christ. I’m definitely one of those who is passionate on the subject, so I look forward to your future posts!
Isaac,
I’m greatly looking forward to this series. As one who has been deeply impacted by the teaching of someone on the teaching staff of NANC (the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors), a man whose counseling God used to save my marriage following a two and a half year separation, a man who was himself counseled by Stuart Scott, and who is one of today’s most vocal and persuasive advocates of Nouthetic counseling, I would have to say my feet are firmly planted. I’m Nouthetic through and through.
On the other hand, I’m reading a book by Sam Storms entitled “To Love Mercy,” which happens to be about counseling, and he is very much under the influence of Larry Crabb (who is decidedly NOT Nouthetic). So I see that some very good, theologically grounded men disagree on this topic. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out here at Who Am I.
If you get a chance to ask Dr. Scott to comment on Crabb, that would be interesting to hear about. Crabb is a hard one to pin down, as he is definitely influenced by secular psychology, but in a far more nuanced way than, say, Stephen Arterburn or Drs. Cloud & Townsend (who are totally duped by the unbiblical stuff IMHO – hook line and sinker!). I pray God will give you wisdom and discernment as you explore these matters.
Blessings, brother.
Derek
Derek,
You said;
“influenced by secular psychology, but in a far more nuanced way than, say, Stephen Arterburn or Drs. Cloud & Townsend (who are totally duped by the unbiblical stuff IMHO – hook line and sinker!).”
This is a tall comment and Id love to hear true examples (not vague postulations)
Thanks for engaging,
Jason
New Life Miniseries (the Ministry of Steve Arterburn)
Jason,
Thanks for your comment. I guess that was indeed a pretty “tall” thing I said about the leading men at New Life Ministries. First of all, let me say, “No offense intended.”
As I stated, this is only an opinion. I may be wrong about these men, however I believe my opinion is an informed one, and here’s why: I listened to New Life Live regularly for about 5 years (1999-2004). During that time, I was under a constant stream of nouthetic material, in the form of sermons, classes, books and counseling sessions. I’ve been counseled by no less than 5 certified nouthetic counselors (yeah, I was quite a tough case).
The types of advice I heard on New Life Live was often directly at odds with the nouthetic teaching I was hearing at church, and it is from this experience that I formed the opinion I stated.
But perhaps I am wrong? Are these men NOT trained in secular psychology (Freudian, Skinner-ish, Jungian, a combination of these – or something similar) and strongly influenced by this in the things they teach? Do they not directly advocate the basic principles of psychology in their counseling approach? Do they not operate under the assumption that most people with “big problems” need the help of clinical psychologists and not just deeper Christian discipleship?
I’m not saying there is nothing good in the teaching of these men (there certainly is), but I am concerned by the appearance that they themselves have been “duped” (i.e., taken in willingly) by unbiblical, secular psychology models. I would really like to reach a different conclusion, but based on my direct experience of listening extensively to the show, I hold to my opinion as stated.
I find in the New Life counselors a continual leaning toward behaviorism, but in a good nouthetic teacher there is always an insistence on starting with the heart issues, calling for repentance, grounding all behavioral change in the cross, keeping a sharp focus on the Gospel, and using Biblical rather than cultural or clinical terminology to describe both the problem and the solution. Many have been helped by both approaches, but if you ask me which is more Biblical, I’m going to say the nouthetic approach. Again, just an opinion, but it doesn’t come out of a vacuum.
On the other hand, one great piece of advice I received from New Life was this: “Do the next right thing.” That oft-repeated little snippet has been helpful to me at some of the more challenging stages of life.
I hope this helps to explain why I made the tall remark. Feel free to challenge me further. I won’t be picking through Arterburn’s books looking for errors any time soon. However, I would take up a different sort of challenge: if you can recommend a book that topples the nouthetic approach on Biblical and theological grounds, I’ll read it with an open mind.
Blessings,
Derek Ashton
Here’s a question:
“If in a ministry position which is not church-related, how is it suggested you counsel someone who is not a Christian and has absolutely no concern about God’s Word?”
I look forward to the reply. May the Lord bless your time of study at SBTS.
James, just for my own sake, could you clarify your question? Are you wondering what approach to take when counseling someone (for example, someone grieving or making very bad decisions) who has no interest in what the Bible has to say? Thanks, brother.
Thanks to all who commented so far. Looks like there’s going to be a lot of discussion in the days ahead. I hope it will sharpen all of us.
Barry – Thanks for the prayers!!
Ronnica – That is awesome. Look forward to hearing your perspective on things.
Derek – Thanks man, I’m looking forward to this endeavor though it’s a little intimidating. Looking forward to your thoughts on the Sam Storms book. I Crabb’s “The Safest Place on Earth” about 5 years ago and loved it. I remembered there were a few things I didn’t agree with (can’t recall what they were). Besides that, I don’t really know much about the stance of the other guys mentioned.
James – That’s a good question. What would be an example of the non church-related ministry position? Perhaps a para-church ministry like a collegiate ministry, or maybe even a Christian counseling agency? This will probably be a question that is brought up during the semester. If we take the gospel and God’s Word out of the picture…what can we really offer?
If there are behavior modification issues (substance abuse, for example) there are things you could do to help, but without the gospel at work in his life, we’re just talking about curbing a behavior and not dealing with the heart – which in the end will fail.
Isaac, in light of the comments by Derek and Jason above, I’d like to see you (at some point in this series, probably here near the beginning) clearly lay out the fundamental principles of nouthetic counseling, and describe how it differs from other approaches to counseling. Some readers of the blog may know that, and some may not.
Barry – What approach should be taken in a counseling situation with a non-believer who has neither interest in the Bible nor the gospel? How does a [nouthetic] counselor help such a person?
Isaac – An example of a non-church related ministry, as you have suggested, might be a collegiate ministry/university chaplain, a Christian counseling agency providing help for the community, etc. As a military chaplain, I run into a lot of people who have no faith background, have no mental inclination toward the Scriptures, etc.
I agree with you – often it is a matter of behavior modification, not a matter of dealing with the heart. All too often I feel like I’m putting an emotional band-aid on people who need heart surgery. Nonetheless, I want to put the band-aid to stop some of the bleeding. Does that make sense? The ultimate need is Christ Jesus as offered in the gospel, no question there.
Curious as to what the nouthetic folks say on this point.
James,
That’s a great question. I’m curious about that one, too. Maybe Isaac will bring back an answer from Dr. Scott at some point.
I know from experience that the first question on a nouthetic counselor’s mind is, “are you a believer?” If you aren’t, his first goal is to lead you to Christ. In chaplaincy, it’s not always that easy, since part of your “official” role is to help the counselee get through the situation – not necessarily by challenging his basic presuppositions. That’s a very difficult position for you as a believer to be in. My hat goes off to you, brother!
Derek
Derek,
I appreciate your level headed response, thank you for taking the time to expound further.
I suppose before I respond, I think it would be of value to get some solid, clear, grounded examples (and if not examples exactly, at least a general, but rooted observation); So, leaving out terms, labels, approaches, might you explain what is unbiblical about Steve’s/NL’s advice/words?
Thank you very much,
Jason
Jason,
I would largely agree with the concerns expressed in the following reviews of some books by Steve Arterburn and Drs. Cloud & Townsend. These reviews provide lots of examples and explanations of the difference between a nouthetic approach and a psychology-based approach.
http://www.christiandiscernment.com/Christian%20Discernment/CD%20PDF/Book%20pdf/15%20Boundaries.pdf (Review of “Boundaries” – 48 pages)
http://www.christiandiscernment.com/Christian%20Discernment/CD%20PDF/Book%20pdf/15A%20Boundaries%20Summary.pdf
http://www.christiandiscernment.com/Christian%20Discernment/CD%20PDF/Book%20pdf/04%20Enslaved%20to%20Lust.pdf
http://www.christiandiscernment.com/Christian%20Discernment/CD%20PDF/Book%20pdf/Toxic%20Teachings.pdf (Review of “Toxic Faith” – 34 Pages)
Any of these would provide the types of examples you are asking for. What I read in these reviews is similar to my own thoughts as I have listened to New Life Live. The advice, the approach, the terminology, the fundamental presuppositions simply don’t square with my reading of Scripture.
Blessings,
Derek
Derek,
I am obliged for your providing me with these resources, pleas allow me a week or so to find the time to peruse them. Thank you and blessings,
Jason
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Thanks for this post. There is such a great need for an ongoing discussion about the place of Biblical truth in the world of therapy.
It seems to me that the ways in which the nouthetic tribe are attempting to use the Bible is sometimes akin to labeling Poe’s The Raven as a treatise on ornithology. It misses the point entirely.
I recently wrote a comparison of two college-level classes one and intro to psych class from MIT the other a Pastoral Counseling class from Reformed Theological Seminary which is far too long to post here. The comparison and contrast is as fascinating as it is alarming.
This is an ongoing series, Darrell. I hope you’ll read all the posts and continue to interact with the author, Isaac (one of my blog team members currently enrolled in a biblical counseling class at Southern Seminary). Thanks for commenting.
Darrell,
You posted the exact same comment at Triablogue two minutes ago. Apparently you have an interesting post contra nouthetic counseling, and I will check it out to see what you have to say. But upfront I’ll suppose that comparing the sacred Scriptures with a Poe poem may be evidence of the deteriorated view of Scripture that has led so many American Evangelicals to embrace principles of unbiblical psychology without questioning them or examining them in the light of God’s flawless revelation – the revelation which tells us the unvarnished, precise and entirely accurate truth about Himself, His design for mankind, man’s fallen state, and the remedy for man’s condition.
I enjoy scientific observations, clinical studies, and theories about sociology, but in the end I’m going to trust the Bible over ANY of man’s conclusions. Because God’s smarter and more trustworthy than I am.
Blessings,
Derek Ashton
Hmmmm…interesting. Good detective work, Derek; and an intelligent, informed response. Thanks.
By the way, did you happen to see this article by David Powlison?
No, I didn’t see it. It’s a long article, but it looks like it would be worth taking the time to read.
By the way, Darrell’s article is interesting to read (and shorter). He makes some interesting points. I don’t agree with his conclusions, but he is right about this general reality: sometimes nouthetic counseling has been used and defended in a way that is not right or helpful.
However, that doesn’t make it intrinsically bad or wrong. One could reject Christianity on the same basis (because it, too, has been misused). Any good hammer can be used to build or to destroy (in fact, the best hammer will do the most damage). The solution for a badly used Christianity is not humanism, and the answer to a badly used nouthetic counseling is not psychology. The real question, in both cases, is “what is true?” – not, “How has it been used?” The truth question always leads us back to the issue of inerrancy. Either we believe God’s Word or we don’t. The pragmatic argument that says, “I was abused by a nouthetic counselor” or “nouthetic counselors don’t use enough clinical studies” overlooks the central issue entirely. It’s an epistemic issue, not a pragmatic one.
Anyway, that’s my $1.50 for today. 🙂